Can't target fascia?

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toaster
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Upstate New York

Can't target fascia?

Post by toaster »

Not a blog but a YouTube video from Jenni Rawlings "debunking" myofascial claims:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foDXe69YuFI
YogiBethC on FB, IG, and YouTube
Bernie
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:25 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: Can't target fascia?

Post by Bernie »

Where to begin? Jenny Rawlings is a very credible speaker and teacher and I have enjoyed her writing. But, in this video there are a a few red herrings and straw men set up which she then proceeds to poke holes in. Let me start with agreeing with a few statements she makes:

"Fascia is not a magical tissue and is no more important than other tissues like muscles or nerves.” (I am paraphrasing). This is certainly true, but so what? This doesn’t mean fascia is not important and not worth targeting. The pancreas is an important tissues and for diabetics, it is worth targeting or at least augmenting its release of insulin when it is not producing enough. Does this make the pancreas magic or more important than the heart? Well, I would argue to a diabetic, yes it is more important. Similarly, someone suffering from a fascial imbalance or deficit, it does make sense to target the fascia.

There is another issue that has been forgotten recently: for decades fascia was the ignored and discarded tissue. It was considered useless packing material and of no clinical interest. The researchers focussing on fascia 20, 30, 40 years ago were considered to be wasting their time. If fascia is considered “over-hyped” today, it is in reaction to its dismissal in prior years. Back then, this uninteresting packing material was just a subset of connective tissue, comprised of collagen fibers. Boring!

Jenny’s definition of fascia harkens back to this earlier, limited view. Today we know that fascia is far more than the collagen fibers she defines it to be. In the Fascia Congress in Berlin in 2018, Carla Stecco presented the latest understanding of what makes up fascia (and this understanding continues to evolve.) She pointed out that fascia has three main components: 1) cells (ie living tissue such as fibroblasts, myofibroblasts, fasciacytes and teleocytes); 2) extracellular matrix (water and fibers such as collagen and elastin); and 3) nerves (such as free nerve endings (nociceptors), muscle spindles and others). The roles of these three components include 1) regulation of fascial metabolism and adaptation to hormonal influences (yes! Our hormones affect our fascia!); 2) gliding and lubrication; force transmission and physical networking; 3) sensing pain, pressure, heat, vibrations; proprioception; interoception. So, there is a lot more to fascia than simply collagen fibers.

"You can not target fascia in an isolated way," said Jenny. Well, yes and no. I agree that you can’t isolate any tissue; the body is too integrated for that. But this does not mean that you cannot target a particular tissue. For example: I may want to work on my bicep muscles and get bigger arms muscles. To do this, I will target this muscle and do lots of arm curls. It is true that in doing arm curls, I am also working my shoulders, my forearms, my torso and core muscles along with my heart and nervous system. I can’t isolate the biceps and only affect them, but I can definitely affect them. So when I say I am targeting my biceps, it is true! I am affecting my biceps. Similarly, I can target my fascia. Yes, along the way, I am also affecting other tissues, but that is just a bonus. I am still targeting my fascia.

Now for some statements Jenny made that I do not agree with. She has this straw man version of fascia that it is only collagen fibers and then explains why myofascia release cannot affect these fibers. But, fascia is far more than just fibers!

“The force needed to break fascial adhesions would exceed the limits of our tissues.” (Again, I am paraphrasing) This is a red herring because myofascial release is not trying to “break” adhesions. Rather, the intention is to dissolve them. There are many possible causes for restriction to range of motion. Jenny does discuss neurological causes and even the autonomic nervous system. Myofascial release and other modalities may affect these systems and affect a release in the tissues that have nothing to do with collagenous adhesions. But, there is a lot more happening in our fascia which may restrict our movements. Hormones are one cause of a loss of mobility (see the research of Catherine Fede). Another is a surplus of hyaluronic acid which can aggregate and gum up the ECM and restrict movement. Antonio Stecco has shown that heat can liquify this HA aggregate as can physical stresses. Robert Schleip has reported that water in a gel state in our fascia can reduce range of motion, but through pressure, massage or long held, yin yoga postures, the state of the water can be changed to the sol state, which again loosens up the tissue.

One way to reduce fibrosis and adhesions is via fibroblasts secreting enzymes that dissolve collagen. Other cells can do this too. After an injury, the body’s healing system has ways to reduce the temporary scaffold of collagen and avoid permanent scar tissue from building up. Unfortunately, this system doesn’t always work and scar tissue can remain. MFR (myofascial release) and other modalities can help reduce or remove this scar tissue, not by tearing the collagen apart as Jenny suggests (her red herring) but by allowing the fascia to complete its job of dissolving the scar tissue or fibrosis. When the water in the ECM is in a gel state, the fibroblasts are not effective at dissolving old collagen, but once the water is in a solution state, toxins can migrate out of the fascia and other cells can move around and do their work more effectively.

if your model of fascia is only collagen fibers (a straw man) and if you think the only way to get rid of these fibers is through brute force, then you could understand Jenny’s statement that "We can’t change fascia with our hands or massage tools…” However, that is not what fascia research is saying. The research is showing it is possible to encourage the fascia to dissolve adhesions with certain stimulations.

“...the main benefit of rolling and massage are likely to be neurological (ie not fascia) — it is more a systemic effect, not a local effect.”
Jenny is only partly correct here. The neurological effect is just one of many possible effects that occur during massage, yoga, exercise, and MFR. Fascia is not just collagen and the effects of fascial-targeted interventions are not just neuronal. Inflammation is mediated by fascia. Robert Schleip reports that fascia has 10 times more nociceptors (pain nerve endings) than the muscles and most muscular pain is actually the fascia reacting to swelling in the muscles which stretch the fascia. Fascia stiffness is now implicated in supporting cancer tumour growth and metastasis. (See the work of Helene Langevin and others in this area.)

I could go on a write a book on this topic, but there is no need; these books have been written. Where Jenny says, "We don’t need to highlight fascia as “extra important” compared to muscles, nerves, etc.” this is true only when someone is not suffering a fascial imbalance. But, like a diabetic who needs to worry about their pancreas, or heart attack victims who needs to worry about their hearts, for people suffering from problems stemming from fascial imbalances, which can range from reduced range of motion and mobility to chronic pain, chronic inflammation, chronic fatigue or even some forms of cancer, focussing on fascia may be beneficial.

There is a lot more to fascia than the old model of collagen fibers.

Cheers
Bernie
toaster
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:48 am
Location: Upstate New York

Re: Can't target fascia?

Post by toaster »

Bernie, sorry about the delayed recognition of your response; I very much appreciate your analysis!

I appreciate Jenny's work too, but sometimes I think she argues points that no one was making. For example, her assertion that "you can't target fascia in an isolated way" - who said that you could? As you noted, the body is integrated. I'm sure we can't really target the biceps in an isolated way either, but we still do bicep curls!

Perhaps as a psychologist, I have a lot more tolerance for "it depends" and "yes and no" type answers. 😁
YogiBethC on FB, IG, and YouTube
patti_krogman
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Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:38 am

Re: Can't target fascia?

Post by patti_krogman »

Bernie,
Thank you for this thoughtful explanation. I randomly came upon a Jenni Rawlings podcast regarding Yin-style yoga and fascia. I don’t know of, and had never heard of Jenni Rawlings and was immediately taken aback when listening. Being a new-to-your-forum reader, I plugged in the name and found this. Thank you again and much appreciation for the vast amount of information provided in this forum! I continually learn when searching here. I also appreciate the studies, articles, books, etc. referenced and linked to that allow a deeper look and confirmation.
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