locust versus floor bow prasarita Paddotanasana sciatica

There are often many questions about Yin Yoga and specific spinal conditions. Feel free to ask your question here, or check out other posts or contribute input from your own experience.
Post Reply
Liz A
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 1:19 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia

locust versus floor bow prasarita Paddotanasana sciatica

Post by Liz A »

Hi Bernie
I understand locust pose (especially the superman version and the version with arms out to the side up in the air etc) is a high risk/low reward pose given the 6,000 neutons of force generated. However, I'm wondering then what about floor bow pose? is it safer as I can't find much on this pose in your spine book? I'm hoping it's different since there is a bind and a bit of leverage with the arms?

Also, I've heard the instruction from a few yoga teachers recently when coming into Prasarita Padottanasana to not pigeon toe the feet if you have sciatica? I would have thought this would be ok to do? I realise it depends on what caused the sciatic and how acute it is as it's a bit more complicated that that. I'm referring to myself who has piriformis syndrome and not a bulged disc. What are your thoughts?

Many thanks

Liz
Bernie
Posts: 1292
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:25 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: locust versus floor bow prasarita Paddotanasana sciatica

Post by Bernie »

Hi Liz.

The estimate of the amount of force generated by the “superman pose” comes from the work of Stuart McGill. I don’t think he has ever studied Bow Pose, however, so I can only estimate what that would be like. In my opinion, as the hands are holding the feet and the posture is not maintained solely by contraction of the erector spinae muscles along the spine, there would be less compressive force on the vertebral bodies. There is probably more stress on the posterior parts of the vertebrae, however, due to the shape of the pose. Bow is a much deeper extension of the spine than Locust Pose so there is more likelihood of compression being placed on the spinous processes and facet joints. Now, more is not necessary bad in this case: it depends. Even the force of 6,000 newtons is not necessarily bad — IF the students' spines have been trained to tolerate this much stress. For professional gymnasts, this is likely not a problem. For an untrained yoga student, this could be way too much. It depends upon the person’s biography and biology. How to tell? I don’t really know other than to ask the student what they are feeling in their backs while they do the pose, when they come out and over the next day or two. Is there pain or discomfort? If so, it is better to back off and do core strengthening work via McGill’s Big three exercises as described in my book Your Spine, Your Yoga.

Regarding placement of the feet in Prasarita Padottanasana (PP) — the right position is very individual. No aesthetic cue of “feet out” or “feet parallel” is going to work for every body. It depends upon the amount of tibial torsion the student has, the amount of femoral torsion and acetabular anteversion. And, yes, the cause of the sciatic is very important too. For discogenic sciatica, flexion of the lumbar as occurs in PP could be the problem. For piriformis caused sciatica, flexion, adduction and some internal rotation may trigger it. But, how do you know if someone’s legs are internally rotated? Looking at the feet will not tell you. At the end of the day, the best test of whether PP is okay for someone’s sciatica is to test it. Is sciatica made worse or better with different foot alignments? Is it better to not do the post at all?

The student has to be the one telling the teacher what works, not vice versa. Teachers can only make suggestions, teachers should not make diagnoses. :-)

Cheers
Bernie
Liz A
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 1:19 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: locust versus floor bow prasarita Paddotanasana sciatica

Post by Liz A »

HI Bernie thanks for your response. Yes, I don't tell students how to place their feet in PP and like to build the pose from the core as we are not buildings like you have said. I was just curious as to why some teachers say this about sciatica. I actually irritated my sciatic nerve in this pose (or it was the straw that broke the camel's back) but anyway I came out of it limping at the end of Bikram class years ago. I do encourage my students to listen to their bodies (rather than being dogmatic) due to my studies with you, Jo Phee and online with Paul Grilley. Our students are often our best teachers too as Jo says. That's a good point about locust too, encouraging students to inquire how they feel during after and the next day. I myself have to teach locust these days as it's part of the Bikram sequence (I teach a version of this sequence with a very different dialogue) but I give my students options to have their arms down as per your book and do warn them it's a strong pose.
My back is happier not doing it after 11 years of practicing it as I was told in my first 200 hours training (Iyengar based) that it was one of the most therapeutic poses for the back, so I used to practice it ALOT! So it's great to have a beginner's mind so I can learn new things. Thank you to you and Dr McGill for sharing your vast knowledge. I am currently re-watching the videos and taking more notes from the Your Spine Your Yoga course. I have really enjoyed this course.
Bernie
Posts: 1292
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:25 am
Location: Vancouver

Re: locust versus floor bow prasarita Paddotanasana sciatica

Post by Bernie »

That all sounds very good, Liz. Thanks for your feedback.
Cheers
Bernie
Post Reply